FAQ 408
Is No One Saved in This Life?
Must Salvation Await the Final Judgment and Resurrection?
Q. Is It True That Nobody is Saved Until the Final Judgment and Resurrection?
A. You're asking me, how can we can lose something (like salvation) which we allegedly cannot have until death? You cite in justification for this claim, Mathew 24:13, and argue for the necessary daily striving for spiritual cleanliness that is required of us by the Torah. As I understand you, you are advancing a doctrine of salvation by works - until you are cleansed through obedience to all the commandments you cannot be saved.
This error is commonly made by many messianics for it is true we are admonished to live lives of holiness and it is also true that in the Final Judgment all our works or deeds will be taken into account in the assignment of the kind of resurrection we shall receive. There is, however, a very clear scriptural difference between salvation and rewards for deeds done in life.
You're conflating the scriptures which speak of three salvations as far as our location in time is concerned:
- 1. Salvation-Present (our present salvational status);
- 2. Salvation-Past (initial salvation); and
- 3. Salvation-Future (our salvation status at the end of mortality).
Salvation-past, our initial salvation, is the important saving event in our lives that we are admonished to hold onto. The other two (our salvation as it is today and our final salvation that is determined when we die) describe the quality of salvation (or resurrection status) we shall receive if we remain faithful and do not lose our salvation by subsequently rejecting Christ (see Once Saved, Always Saved (OSAS)? We who are saved are admonished to "continue to work out your salvation with fear and trembling" (Phil 2:12, NIV) which baffles OSAS believers who think the initial salvation is 'all there is' (and that once we have made a decision for Christ we are secure in our salvation even if we fall away and become devils) and confuses many messianics like yourself who think we must await the next life until we are saved because salvation is an on-going process. That is the assumption you seem to be making.
This false dichotomy of two extremes leads to a 'double bind' or sorts, or a 'good cop/bad cop situation', that forces us to choose to believe one of two extremes. As I have mostly addressed the evangelical Christian OSAS mistake, this would be a good opportunity to look at counterpart messianic errors.
A careful study of the New Testament teaching on salvation revealed that there is both a key saving event in the form of 'initial salvation' as well (as we have seen) the need to yet be saved. How can both be true? Because Paul is the apostle who unpacks the initial salvation events in the greatest depth, explaining that no man can save himself by his own deeds, many messianics - understanding that salvation also appears to be a process - erroneously conclude Paul was a false apostle and reject all his writings or conclude that his writings contain a mixture of truth and error. You, by your own admission to me, clearly adopt the second position and in the process sow much confusion not only in your own mind but in the minds of others who believe and follow you. Since I have never come across anyone in your position who has yet dared to 'rewrite' Paul by removing his false doctrine, this leaves you in the position of being the one to whom confused believers must inevitably go for scriptural resolution as a kind of 'pope' or 'interpreter' since you have undermined confidence in Scripture. This is very dangerous because this sets up a hazardous precedent or people having to reply on you as a kind of 'Moses-man' instead of Scripture which now becomes unreliable. What of others who have sinmilar but different beliefs? To whom should those confused by Paul go? I think to should be obvious that this is both a recipe for chaos and a guarantor or further division in the Body with the potential for idolatry and leading souls away from salvation and to destruction. This I will explain further as I respond to your replies.
Those who reject Paul - in whole or in part - also end up rejecting key doctrines which the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) revealed to this highly anointed man. Two casualties of the teachings of people like yourself that I have noticed commonly are:
A third would be:
both of which are axioms of true Christian/Messianic faith. Reject any or all of these and you have no gospel at all because they're all critically interconnected.
I do not believe our Heavenly Father would leave His children so vulnerable to the whims of heretics which He would have done had He now preserved His Word in reliable Scripture as He prophesied He would.
I don't have time to go tackle these vitally important issues here as I have written extensively about them elsewhere - see the links I have given. What I will do, though, is leave a short list of Scriptures to show that Messiah died for our sins, redeeming us from the Fall, proving that He must also have been Elohim (God) in order to make an infinite atonement and not merely a symbolic one.
1 John 2:2 ESV
He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.
1 Peter 2:24 ESV
He himself bore our sins in his body on the tree, that we might die to sin and live to righteousness. By his wounds you have been healed.
Hebrews 9:12 ESV
He entered once for all into the holy places, not by means of the blood of goats and calves but by means of his own blood, thus securing an eternal redemption.
Hebrews 9:22 ESV
Indeed, under the law almost everything is purified with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness of sins.
Isaiah 53:5 ESV
But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed.
Revelation 5:9 ESV
And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are you to take the scroll and to open its seals, for you were slain, and by your blood you ransomed people for God from every tribe and language and people and nation.
Romans 5:6-11 ESV
For while we were still weak, at the right time Christ died for the ungodly. For one will scarcely die for a righteous person-though perhaps for a good person one would dare even to die- but God shows his love for us in that while we were still sinners, Christ died for us. Since, therefore, we have now been justified by his blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God. For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, now that we are reconciled, shall we be saved by his life. ...
2 Corinthians 5:21 ESV
For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Isaiah 53:1-12 ESV
Who has believed what he has heard from us? And to whom has the arm of the Lord been revealed? For he grew up before him like a young plant, and like a root out of dry ground; he had no form or majesty that we should look at him, and no beauty that we should desire him. He was despised and rejected by men, a man of sorrows and acquainted with grief; and as one from whom men hide their faces he was despised, and we esteemed him not. Surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows; yet we esteemed him stricken, smitten by God, and afflicted. But he was pierced for our transgressions; he was crushed for our iniquities; upon him was the chastisement that brought us peace, and with his wounds we are healed. ...
Hebrews 13:12 ESV
So Jesus also suffered outside the gate in order to sanctify the people through his own blood.
Matthew 26:28 ESV
For this is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.
Romans 3:25 ESV
Whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins.
etc.
Without the blood of Messiah's atonement we would have no hope and no amount of self-effort will save anyone. We live lives of holiness because we are saved and because we love Him.
Q. How does one enjoy salvation with #1 and #2?
A.
The way I did in 1977 and the way most regenerated evangelicals and others have been doing for centuries
Q. I understand that we have to be sanctified to enter Father's presence. Joel 2:16 and 32 refers as does as entering the gate between the Inner and Outer Courts. Unfortunately I only started keeping Torah around 2006 so as an evangelical before that that I could not enjoy salvation or be able to enter His presence. Christians and evangelicals in Christianity in my understanding cannot enjoy salvation in any shape or form.
A. I totally disagree. My belief is not formalistic and by no means merely theological but existential. I have met hundreds of non-delusional people who are experiencing now what I call alpha- or alef-salvation and various states of sanctification to whatever present-salvation may be or consist of. I don't know what your experience in evangelicalism was but for many salvation is simply a theological (mental) proposition that does not involve their whole being ('body-and-soul'). That initial alpha/alef salvation is LIFE TRANSFORMING - it happened to me in Oxford on 30 March 1977 - I met Elohim/God existentially and my whole life/heart/mind was changed INSTANTLY. (See my Testimony) It's not my final or omega/taw salvation (as many Protestants mistakenly believe) because, as Paul said, I am still 'working out' the final form in my life (which will accompany physical resurrection), and I am acutely conscious of the journey...of my 'saved spaces' and those spaces (which I hope are now few...or fewer) which Messiah hasn't penetrated, one of which I encountered today and is discussed in today's Informal Garden Chat (IGC14 - see videos).
Yes, we have to be totally sanctified to enter Father's presence - that was accomplished for us by the work of Yah'shua (Jesus) on the cross - this means we can approach the Father through the Son - alone we never could, and never will be able to. This was demonstrated when, at His death (the concluding action of atonement), the thick, heavy veil of the Temple, separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies, was ripped supernaturally that previously only the Cohen Gadol (High Priest) was allowed to cross once a year at Yom haKippurim. Now anyone can cross it who has exercised faith in Christ unto salvation and therefore instantaneous inner supernatural transformation/regeneration, becoming a new creature/creation according to the infinite mercies (chesed) of Elohim (God).
Q. Proverbs 28:9 Whoever turns aside his ear from hearing the Torah, even his prayer is
an abomination. (Pr 15:8, Ps 109:7). Messiah himself tells us in Matthew 13 that He will destroy all non-Torah
Keepers upon His return! That includes all Christians because they are druid pagans.
A. Aye aye aye.
1. EVERYONE - Christians, messianics, even pagans and unbelievers are Torah-compliant to one degree or another (some more than others) but NO ONE is 100 per cent Torah-compliant, not even the most faithful Messianics, because it's impossible - only Messiah was 100 per cent compliant but that doesn't make Him the Only one who was saved but rather qualifies Him to be the Saviour of all the rest. Does not Messiah also teach in Scripture that to break one Torah commandment is to BREAK THE WHOLE TORAH and be GUILTY OF ALL? Therefore, logically, NO ONE can be saved through Torah-obedience! None but Christ! And that's the whole point which so many legalistic messianics have been blinded by - our Alef/Alpha salvation has nothing to do with Torah or works of any kind - its a free gift. What we do with that gift thereafter is up to us for we can just as easily discard and lose it. Torah matters FOR THE ALPHA/ALEF-SAVED - it is the LOVE RESPONSE of the Saved: "IF you LOVE, Me, OBEY the COMMANDMENTS" (Jn.14:15). We will be judged for our compliance and non-compliance and, if we are Messiah-believers, inherit different resurrections based on that choice. See my website on hell;
2. Does He? Does He word it the way you have? What of the messianics who are Talmudic pagans with their numerous pagan additions? You have this obsession with druids...they're not the only 'bad kids on the block' and just because we are all failing to life perfectly obedient lives doesn't suddenly make us all druidic pagans; and
3. Finally a question for which I request a clear answer: DO YOU ACCEPT ALL THE BOOKS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT AS CANONICAL? DO YOU ACCEPT THAT PAUL WAS A GENUINE APOSTLE?
Q. 1. So who is it that Messiah says He will destroy upon His return? Matthew 13:37-43 refers. Who are the 'Lawless'?
2. The druids run the world today. The world druid system is the Beast of Revelation. Mine is not an obsession, it is merely a fact. They have subsumed every bad kid on the bock including satanism. This is a very deep rabbit hole!
3. No, there are lots of errors and at least one book is plagiarized e.g. 2Peter.
Paul, was shown to me by Father to be a false apostle over 20 years ago. The Greek word for apostle, apparently is the same word as emissary. There is a lot of meat in Paul's writings but there is also a lot of false teachings.
Did Messiah teach us about speaking in tongues or a Rapture?
Did not Marcion corrupt Paul's Torah teachings? Did not Sir Francis Bacon corrupt the KJV with its over 10,600 deliberate errors, including Romans 10:13? Any Apostle of Joshua Messiah would lead us to Torah obedience and Paul certainly did so.
So why don't Christians obey Father's Torah because we are told to do so at least 4 times in the so called NT. Why don't Christians keep Father's Feasts yet obey outright pagan feasts of the druids?
Father told me where to look elsewhere for Paul's deceptions. He said that I would not be able to catch Paul out in any way without obeying Torah.
Do you know what Paul's mandate was from the Herod family? Did he try to destroy the people of the Way? Did he not give us 3 separate accounts of his vision on the way to Tarsus? How Many witnesses were there to his claims or were there only his claims?
1. So who is it that Messiah says He will destroy upon His return? Matthew 13:37-43 refers. Who are the 'Lawless'?
2. The druids run the world today. The world druid system is the Beast of Revelation. Mine is not an obsession, it is merely a fact. They have subsumed every bad kid on the bock including satanism. This is a very deep rabbit hole!
3. No, there are lots of errors and at least one book is plagiarized e.g. 2Peter.
Paul, was shown to me by Father to be a false apostle over 20 years ago. The Greek word for apostle, apparently is the same word as emissary.
There is a lot of meat in Paul's writings but there is also a lot of false teachings.
Did Messiah teach us about speaking in tongues or a Rapture?
Did not Marcion corrupt Paul's Torah teachings? Did not Sir Francis Bacon corrupt the KJV with its over 10,600 deliberate errors, including Romans 10:13? Any Apostle of Joshua Messiah would lead us to Torah obedience and Paul certainly did so.
So why don't Christians obey Father's Torah because we are told to do so at least 4 times in the so called NT. Why don't Christians keep Father's Feasts yet obey outright pagan feasts of the druids?
Father told me where to look elsewhere for Paul's deceptions. He said that I would not be able to catch Paul out in any way wrt obeying Torah.
Do you know what Paul's mandate was from the Herod family? Did he try to destroy the people of the Way? Did he not give us 3 separate accounts of his vision on the way to Tarsus? How Many witnesses were there to his claims or were there only his claims?
Lawrence Albertyn
I belong to at least 3 anti=Paul groups on FB - each one has something definitive to claim about Paul or at least, his writings
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Lawrence Albertyn The issue for me is not the Torah (as you know) but what the Torah is FOR not whether it can save a man (it can't) and how Paul is UNDERSTOOD (which he often isn't). Nor is there any issue for me about batalogean Tongues or Rapture (as you also know) or what Christ did or didn't say about them.
Claims that the "Ruach" told you (or anyone else) this or that regarding the authority of a New Testament book carries no weight with me. Anyone can say that about anything. One false assumption along the way about such weighty matters can lead to a landslide of assumptions that 'seen'. It's mostly liberals who doubt the authenticity of New Testament books/letters. As to 2 Peter allegedly being a 'plagiarisation', what is it supposed to have plagiarised exactly? (It reminds me of the claims made that the Protocols are an alleged 'forgery' without explaining what the 'forgery' is supposed to be OF - what they mean is a work of fiction).
I am aware of the negative claims made by 2 Peter. None of us knows for sure how various NT documents were compiled and we are ill advised to engage in too much speculation. The Gospel of Mark is, in reality, Mark's collection of Peter's own sermons and teachings, and there is no reason to suppose that 2 Peter might not be similar, a compilation when the apostle was older, and given his stamp of authentication in verse 1, doubtless in his own handwriting as Paul did with several of his letters penned by scribes for him. The other synoptics are more or less doing the same but taking their source material from multiple apostolic witnesses.
The evidence that ANY NT writing has been tampered with is sparse to non-existent. Christian textual transmission experts like Bruce M. Metzger and agnostic Bart D. Ehrman all agree that what we have is a faithful reproduction of what was originally. The glut of copies, whose lineages can be traced, leave no room for doubt. Even atheist scholars now pretty much agree that they are all authentic. Had Paul been 'dubious' or heretical John, who outlived him by several decades, would have had something to say about the matter, or his pupils like Polycarp, but they did not, all of which suggests to me that the criticisms are contrived. That Paul would defend himself against false apostles, remembering that John encountered the same trouble in HIS epistles, tells me that this was to be accepted. That chart you shared claiming access to Paul's motives is about a biased as you can get. Maintaining the apostolic doctrine with so many hostile actors around is hardly surprising given Satan tried to extinguish the Messianic Community with even greater vigour up to the time of Dioletian when John wrote Revelation and his three epistles, and far beyond.
As for the "anti-Paulists" in general,. they branch off in so many dirrent directions, most of them are liberals, some are wayölaid by pseudo-gospels and letters like the Clementine Homilies which ensnaed a drear friend who ended uo losing his faith altogether. Today he is a New Age shaman. Few understand Paul fuilly because he was so deep, even the most brilliant minds like N.T.Wright, arguably the best Pauline scholar ever, has struggled to make sense of him made only possible by making the supreme effort to MAP HIS ENTIRE SCOPE and understand him on the context of the Greek and Latin world in which he ministered AS DID JOHN.
It is a serious matter to shipwreck souls by undermining their confidence in parts of the NT. The New Perspectivists might have done that with me had I not been born again and SAVED first. It's what preserved me through a three year flirt I had with a cult. Since you have done it, I am going to too: YAHWEH SHOWED ME IN A REVELATION THAT PAUL WAS A TRUE APOSTLE back in the 1980s when I was struggling with similar issues. But that's my personal testimomy. At least I have the weight to history behind me. Similarly Yahweh showed me in a shocking experience the veracity of the atoning bloo sacrifice of Yah'shua (Jesus) but again I don't need to prove it because this was believed right from the very beginning.
One thing that has greatly troubled me about Calvinists is they believe the apostles and first Christians got key doctrines wrong until Augustine set them straight. You're asking me to believe you, only your claims are very modern indeed. You are a very kind and loving man, Lawrence, and I respect you for that, and have shown great concern for my health, for which I will always apprexciate you, but I consider you to be fuindamentally wrong on Paul and the Atonement - the latter of which is, for me, non-necotiable. Your 'witness' therefore concerns me gravely. We have no problems regarding the binding natuire of the Torah as we're more or less on the same page there thouigh we use it somewhat differently I suspect and don't agree on the nature of the afterlife - I am no 'soul-sleeper'. The summary which is the Apostles Creed is my foundation of which the Incarnation, blood Atonement and physical Resurrection are CORE. I consider your route to salvation ultimately hopeless for at best you can purify your mortal which you then discard at death until you get an entirely new one. The inititial supernatural effect of Alpha-Salvation, as mosr Evangelicals teach, is likewise core to both my theoölogy and experience. That is why I call myself Messianic Evangelical which though to some it might seem a contradiction (for various wrong reasons) I find harmonies the whole corpus of Scripture without having to discard any part or reject anyone.
Theology is extremely important but in the end it's the one with the experience who can lay a firmer ground. I met the resurrected Yah'shua personally on 30 March 1977 and was transformed INSTANTLY into a new person. And millions of others can tesytify of the same.
