Q. 1995 has been a very special year for NCAY with a great deal happening, especially in terms of inward change. As I move about the people talking to them I sense in all of them a moving of the Ruach haQodesh (Holy Spirit) that has changed their lives. Almost without exception they attribute this change to their steadfast faithfulness to the covenants they have taken. For most Christians the concept of 'entering covenants' is either wholly alien or just subconscious. How is it that Messianic Evangelicals are different and why is this important?

A. Christianity believes in two comings of Messiah (unless you're a pre- or mid-truibulation rapturist and believe in three). The first coming, which took place 2,000 years ago nearly, had as its chief purpose the atonement of the sins of mankind. Elohim (God), taking upon Himself flesh as a man, entered into our dimension both as an individual subject to temptation, pain and the pull of fleshly desires, and as the collective conscience of mankind. By this is meant that He, first, made contact with our physical dimension and mastered it as a human and, second, He made contact with all human beings on the invisible, spiritual plane so that He could enter every life form -- and especially humans -- to become their guilt offering for sin and pay the penalty for that sin. This was Yah'shua's (Jesus's) main mission.

He also established a fellowship of believers, a fellowship or community (church), if you like, to incarnate and witness this message of salvation. This message was basically that by believing - trusting in, adhering to - Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) and making teshuvah (repenting of wrong-doing) when we break the mitzvot (commandments), we would receive a forgiveness of sin and, through a process of spiritual regeneration, be made into new creatures. For nearly two thousand years this message has been preached with differing degrees of purity and clarity and millions have come to experience the living Messiah for themselves.

Over a period of time, institutions evolved -- Church organisations and denominations -- which reflected the politico-cultural surroundings in which believers found themselves. Nearly all of them became corrupted. Political-institutional Christianity became more important than salvational Christianity, and the two became confused.

The time in history at which Messiah arrived is a bit like a mirror. When He came to the earth Judaism was highly organised and corrupt. It was a theocratic society, or rather, had been at different times in its history when it was politically independent. Then it was under Roman occupation. When it lived the Old Covenant righteously, the theocracy flourished. When it broke the covenant, the theocracy crumbled and sometimes they were invaded, occupied and even expelled from their homes.

The Israelites, as we know, expected a political or theocratic Messiah who would restore the Kingdom of David. That has yet to come though the zealots of the day tried to bring it about by violence. The establishment of a world theocracy is the second phase of Messianic salvation. Many churches and nations have tried to accomplish this in their own strength, the Roman Catholic Church and Mormons being perhaps the best examples, though others like Oliver Cromwell's Puritans have tried also. They attempted to do so according to human wisdom and human timing. All failed. They lacked prophetic knowledge of Elohim's (God's) timetable and ways.

The Millennium -- the 1,000 year theocratic rule of Messiah -- is the completion of Yah'shua (Jesus') messianic activity. His mission is not yet complete. Though it hints at it, the New Testament says relatively little about the Millennial Kingdom -- in fact, the Tanakh (Old Testament) says considerably more. One could even say that the Millennial New Testament Scriptures are not there, though there are references to the Millennium here and there. Tanakh (Old Testament( nevi'im (prophets) like Isaiah say a lot more about the Millennium than New Testament apostles like John do.

Q. Yes, why is that?

A. Because that was not the call of the New Testament Community (Church), if I can call it that. The primary function of the New Testament Community (Church) was to:

• (a) Preach the spiritual message of salvation; and
• (b) To take the Besorah (Gospel) beyond the borders of Israel into all the world.

Millennial Christianity will be completely unlike the various forms of Gentile Christianity that are to be found today -- Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Mormon, Adventist, etc.. These are all man-made institutions with Christianity added in various forms and amounts. Many of them (though by no means all) can lead individuals to a simple salvation in Messiah but none of them are the blueprints of the millennial order that is to come. Some claim to be theocracies (like the Jehovah's Witnesses) but do not bring people to salvation in Messiah, and some (like the Mormons) tried to build a theocratic society but failed.

Q. So what is the rôle of NCAY in this scheme?

A. The calling of the Chavurat Bekorot (Holy Order, Assembly of the Firstborn) is to establish in embryo the Millennial Messianic Community in the form of twelve end-time communities. It exists in order to create a mini-culture and to train up theocratic leaders for the millennial Kingdom which Messiah will Himself personally organise when He returns. The NCAY congregations are more like 'service stations' for discipling saved souls through priesthood service as they prepare for their journey to the gathering places of the Chavurat Bekorot itself.

Q. So NCAY is a kind of forerunner?

A. Exactly. As John the Baptist was the forerunner for Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) two millennia ago, so the Chavurat Bekorot is a forerunner of the Millennial Community of Messianioc Israel. The comparison is, however, somewhat limited, and we must be careful with the analogy.

Q. Why did you, a few minutes ago, describe the arrival of Yah'shua (Jesus) as a 'mirror'?

A. If you look back in time you will see that there was more than one covenant. The 'Old Covenant', more accurately described as the 'Mosaic Covenant', is the first we come usually become aware of. But 'behind' these covenants lie others. Behind the Mosaic we discover the Abrahamic, as John's father, Zechariah reminds us at the beginning of Luke's Gospel. Let's take a look at it:

"Praise to Yahweh, the Elohim (God) of Israel, because He has come and has redeemed His people. He has raised up a horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David (as He said through His nevi'im/prophets long ago), salvation from our enemies and from the hand of all who hate us - to show mercy to our fathers and to remember His Qadosh (Holy, Set-Apart) covenant[s], the oath He swore to our father Abraham, to rescue us from the hand of our enemies, and to enable us to serve Him without fear in holiness and righteousness before Him all our days" (Luke 1:68-75, NIV - Aramaic records "covenants").

Q. What about mediaeval Christian states?

A. They were Christian only in name, their practices usually far removed from Biblical Christianity.

Q. Is a Christian state desirable or even necessary? Could one realistically be formed?

A. It is desirable because Elohim (God) has said so through His nevi'im (prophets). It is necessary because without it there will never be world peace. Such a state cannot be realistically formed in our world - in the current world or Babylonian system - and those who have tried to form one have failed. Messiah will set up that state himself when He returns.

Q. So Messianic Evangelicals aren't going to try and set up a Catholic-type 'Papal State' or a Mormon 'Deseret' then?

A. Absolutely not. We would never succeed and such a venture would only bring sorrow and tragedy. Only Elohim (God) Himself, through personal intervention, can set that state up; and He will do so by destroying all existing state governments. Besides, its capital (the New Jerusalem) cannot be made on earth - it will descand to earth from the heavenly realm.

Q. But in the meantime you are setting up the organs for such a state?

A. That depends what you mean by 'organs'. In the United Kingdom where I come from the opposition parties - those who are not in power - have what are called a 'shadow cabinet' which is a kind of shadow government preparing itself for political power. In Taiwan, which claims to be the legitimate ruler of the whole of China, there are state presidents and ministers for the whole mainland ruled currently by the communists. They are purely symbolic offices with no real power, obviously.

The Chavurat Bekorot has nothing like this, if that is what you mean. We don't have planetary governors or other officers or anything like that. What a waste of time that would be! An exercise in vanity! We have no idea who will be called rule the planet. We know only that the qodeshim (saints, set-apart ones) will do so with Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) as King based in the New Jerusalem.

We do know, however, that His rulers must have certain credentials. Just as ministers in secular government must have knowledge of economics, social welfare, etc., so those who rule in the Millennium -- which I shall call 'Zion' here (not to be confused with modern-day communistic political system called 'Zionism') -- must have certain spiritual qualifications. Those qualifications or abilities are acquired in, and by, the Melchizedek Priesthood of Elohim (God).

Q. So the Chavurat Bekorot is rather like a spiritual university?

A. That is one of its functions. We have a massive spiritual education program, as you know, and this will become more extensive in time. The whole world's way of thinking is distorted and quite inappropriate for Zionic government.

Q. But what about the experience that will be needed for so great a task? How can you achieve that in the world?

A. By building small colonies or communities where such a rule or government is in operation. These are called 'Firstborn Communities' because they are under Firstborn Torah or Law.

Q. What is 'firstborn' in this context?

A. Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). Yah'shua (Jesus) is the firstborn (Rom.8:29; Col.1:5,18; Heb.1:6; Rev.1:5). The Chavurat Bekorot is the firstborn,

• (a) Because it belongs to the Firstborn, Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ); and
• (b) Because it is the first-born fellowship of millennial believers.

Q. I thought "Assembly of the Firstborn" was just one of many titles for the Messianic Community (Church) as a whole?

A. No. Look carefully at what the writer of Hebrews says. This Assembly of the Firstborn has special associations -- it is also called Mount Zion, the Heavenly Jerusalem, the City of the Living Elohim (God). This Assembly is essentially a heavenly one, structured after the divine, heavenly tavnith or pattern in every detail. The Holy Order, or New Covenant Assembly of the Firstborn, is a mirror of this heavenly Assembly which will descend to the earth in the last day (Rev.3:12; 21:2).

No, the Assembly of the Firstborn is a unique and separate Body. It is not a gentile Church (even though some gentile churches have borrowed this title).

Q. I'm still not sure that I understand your mirror analogy...

A. No, I haven't finished explaining that. The fellowship or assembly (church) organised by Messiah in the meridian of time and which latterly evolved into the gentile churches of today was a mirror of the old Mosaic Covenant -- imperfect and preparatory. Abraham was the forerunner of the Hebrew nation and many others. We are told that those who are born again of Elohim (God) are adopted into his literal family (Gal.3:7). He was a shadow of the forerunner work of this Messianic Evangelical work.

Q. What of Adam, then?

A. This is the Millennial Paradise, the New Covenant Eden.

Q. Oh, I see! What Yah'shua (Jesus) did was to set in motion a restoration process leading to the restoration of the Garden of Eden!

A. Yes, exactly, but with a difference. Eden was a world of child-like innocence; the Millennial World will be one of great knowledge and understanding. It will be a Paradise but not the Edenic Paradise. It will be the Messianic Paradise.

Q. So as I understand it now, the Chavurat Bekorot (with its satellite NCAY congregations) is the forerunner of the Messianic Assembly of the Millennium. It is as different from Gentile Christianity as the Covenant of Moses was from the Covenant of Abraham...

A. Let's be careful here. The Law of Moses was both a development of the Covenant of Abraham as well as a retrograde-step. Gentile Christianity is not 'wrong' in the general sense -- it is but a developmental stage, albeit corrupted with pagan elements. I like to look upon it as the caterpillar that gives rise to the butterfly. Caterpillars aren't that beautiful and lack the agility and grace of the butterfly, but without the caterpillar there can be no butterfly.

Q. So gentile Christianity wasn't some terrible mistake, or 'apostate' as Mormons and other groups claim?

A. No. Gentile Christianity was a necessary transition -- imperfect and full of error but a transition nonetheless. Without it we Messianic Evangelicals wouldn't be here. We owe it a debt of gratitude because within it are pearls of precious truths without which we would never have been born.

Gentile Christianity was a backward step from Hebrew Christianity as far as Torah-observance was concerned but it was also a forward step to enable believers to survive in a hostile world. Hebrew Christianity could never have developed as it was -- it was necessary that it disappear. It would have been swallowed up again by Judaism just as we see many Messianic Jews reverting back to Judaism. Attempts as Messianic Judaism today demonstrate that because this is a mixing of the New and Old Covenants plus rabbinical false tradition. Also, as I have said before, it was necessary for a separation of Christian and Jew in order that certain prophecies be fulfilled, namely that in the last day all of Israel will convert to Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ)...every man and woman.

The Covenant of Moses was both a backward and a forward step. It was backward because rules and regulations were imposed on the people because of their rebelliousness and lack of spirituality. But it was also a forward step because it was theocratic -- the Abrahamic Covenant was nomadic and lacked the necessary structures for a large society. Yet the Abrahamic Covenant was higher because the patriarchs conversed with Elohim (God) and were immersed in the heavenly mysteries.

Q. So Moses was at the boundary himself -- both in the Abrahamic and the Mosaic?

A. Yes, indeed. He was the last of the patriarchs having the honour of restoring, in part, the theocratic society which would be the shadow of the New Covenant Theocracy we are establishing, but also having to endure the sorrow of being compelled to impose some carnal laws and commandments on a people whom he knew would remain spiritually backward for a long time.

Q. You paint a picture of both history and the purpose of NCAY which is rather more complex than people imagined...

A. People love to categorise and over-simplify, as we all know to our sorrow. Apart from the regrettable human tendency to label humans as either 'good' or 'bad', when the emet (truth) is usually a mixture, there is also a tendency to label churches as 'true' or 'apostate' as though there were a uniform spirituality or either good or evil within them, without properly understanding the rôle these churches have had - and still have - in the divine scheme of things. Yahweh wastes nothing!

We are often accused of being a 'Mosaic' or a 'legalistic' Community (Church), unfortunately (because of our insistence on holiness and commandment-keeping), when we are neither of these things, because people have a poor understanding of the relationship between dispensational covenants. NCAY, if it didn't exist now, would have to exist later, because it is a natural crystallisation. It had to happen -- it is the next phase of messianic redemption, just as John the Baptist was in his day.

Q. Has NCAY broken completely with gentile traditions?

A. Not enough! This is a process that takes time but we have made good progress. Time is always needed for such transitions -- one generation is rarely enough. No, we are still part-gentile because this restoration faces opposition from a human nature that derives a false sense of security from man-made tradition. We have broken with a lot of gentile traditions and thought-patterns. You must remember that compared with the rest of Christianity we are, in terms of size, a grain of sand versus a whole beach. A better biblical analogy would be a mustard seed. Give us time -- we are on the march and we won't turn back.

Q. Perhaps we could now look at the 'engine' that is driving this march, as you call it. How is this change effected? How do the people change?

A. By trusting in Yah'shua (Jesus) and entering into covenants. A b'rit or covenant is an agreement between Elohim (God) and man (or between man-and-man). Man agrees to obey Yahweh's Torot (Laws) and Yahweh agrees to make available certain blessings, foremost of which is spiritual sanctification and growth. Paul, talking of the people of Israel in the Old Covenant, said:

"Theirs is the adoption as sons; theirs the divine glory, the covenants, the receiving of the Torah (Law), the temple worship and the promises. Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Messiah, who is Elohim (God) over all, forever praised! Amen" (Rom.9:4-5, NIV).

Q. But 'gentile' Christians, as you call them, say that they are no longer under law but grace!

A. How they twist the scriptures! Have they never read Paul who said that we Christians/Messianics live by Torah (Law) also - the Torah (Law) of Messiah? (Gal.6:2, NIV). The Old Covenant was a Law without the rich grace (undeserved loving kindness) brought to us by Yah'shua (Jesus). The B'rit Chadashah (New Covenant) is a Law in grace! Yes, we are saved by grace - Yahweh's unmerited favour toward us - but once we are in that grace we are in the Torah (Law) of Messiah too. Is not Yah'shua our King? Have you ever heard of a King without a Kingdom, or a Kingdom without laws that are to be obeyed, with consequences if they are not? The whole of the New Testament is the Torah (Law) of Messiah - the things we are to do if we love Him by the grace and salvation we claim to have:

"If you love Me, you will obey what I command" (John 14:15, NIV).

Gentile Christianity picks and chooses its scriptures and commandments and has evolved whole theologies around pet subjects. This is a great tragedy because it blinds them to the fullness of Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). They can never come to know Him in His fullness -- as He really is.

Q. So Christians should enter into covenants as the Israelites did?

A. That's what the scriptures say, isn't it? We are Abraham's sons and daughters by adoption (Gal.3:9), by our emunah (faith) in Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). As His sons and daughters we will obey His Torah (Law), which is the Torah (Law) given to Messiah by Elohim (God) the Father. We become Israelites. The temple, the covenants, the Torah (Law) -- everything -- belong to us by emunah (faith) through the Ruach (Spirit), and visibly attested to in the rpesence of witnesses in the ordinance of water baptism (replacing the circumcision of the Old Covenant). I don't know about you but I regard Abraham as my father. I regard Jacob as my father. I worship Yahweh-Elohim of Israel through His Son Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ). That is my Elohim (God). And that Elohim (God) has transformed me into a new creature. That Elohim (God) has never let me down.

Q. So how does one practically-speaking enter into covenants? Does it happen automatically when one is baptised?

A. It is done the same way ancient Israel entered into covenants. The Melchizedek Priesthood, which is the Priesthood of the Messianic/Christian dispensation, is administered or conferred by oath (Heb.7:20). The people make promises in front of witnesses that they will live the Torah (Law) of Messiah, which is spelled out for them.

Q. But didn't Yah'shua (Jesus) forbid the taking of oaths?

A. Yah'shua (Jesus) forbade the taking of oaths in the name of heaven, earth, Jerusalem, or one's head (Matt.5:34-37) in order to establish one's innocence or righteousness. If a man asks you: "Did you strike this man?" you are to reply, "No" and not, "By my mother's grave, I did not." Our "yes" and our "no" are enough and anything more than this is of evil (Mt.5:33-37). We do not need to recruit other objects of 'righteousness' as a witness. Our witness is to be our righteous life in Messiah. Our word is our bond.

This passage in Matthew, so popular with those who hate the Torah (Law), has nothing to do with the taking of priesthood oaths. It concerns private oaths such as foolish Jephthah took which cost him his daughter's life (Judg.11:29-40). There is nothing wrong with a sacred oath ordained by Elohim (God) -- if there were, there would be something wrong with Almighty Elohim (God) who has made dozens of oaths in the scriptures. To say this was wrong is to accuse Him of evil and to accuse Yah'shua (Jesus) of accusing His Father of evil.

A Covenant is an agreement or an oath. The New Testament is Yahweh's New Agreement or Covenant with man. An agreement goes both ways. A Covenant is not binding unless both parties are agreed.

The reason gentile Christianity hates covenants is because it doesn't always want to be accountable. It doesn't always want to be a steward. Stewardship is an awesome thing and we Messianic Evangelicals are under no illusions as to what it means. But this is Yahweh's way, and has been from the beginning.

Q. Doesn't making an agreement show a lack of emunah (faith)?

A. If you mean that the institution of covenant-making was given as a concession to human weakness then there may be some truth in what you say. If we loved and trusted Yahweh as we ought, covenants would not, in the majority if cases, be needed. We would just obey because we would have emunah (faith) that it was right. But we're not like that. We're weak. We are constantly going back to the scriptures to remind ourselves of Yahweh's promises because we entertain so much doubt. Covenants are a reminder of what Yahweh will do when we are faithful -- they are encouragements to us, especially when we see them fulfilled. They aid our spiritual growth.

The context of Matthew 5:33-34, which is the crux of the matter as to whether oaths are required are not, shows in any case that the oaths are to do with inter-personal relationships only. Yah'shua (Jesus) is looking forward to a time when truthfulness will be so binding a duty that oaths will no longer be necessary even in courts of law. This is one of those ideal mitzvot (commandments) which cannot be carried out in the present state of society. Remember that Yah'shua (Jesus) allowed Himself to be put on oath during His trial (Matt.26:63). If He had meant that we were never to take oaths, then the Son of Man sinned during His trial. If He sinned at His trial then He was not the sinless Lamb that takes away the sins of the world and our emunah (faith) is in vain! Do we really want to say that?

Q. Do you think oaths and covenants will ever be done away with?

A. Of oaths, yes; of covenants, I don't know, but I think it's a strong possibility. I think they are needed to bring us to perfection just as the spiritual gifts of prophecy are; when, in the end, we bathe in the fullness of Elohim's (God's) ahavah (love), and know Him completely, and no longer have any disposition to want to sin, then I doubt we shall need covenants any more. But we are far from that condition and I think it hazardous to presume that we do not need covenants anymore.

Q. Could you share one of the covenants taken in NCAY so that we can get some idea of just what you do?

A. Certainly. One of the first covenants that those entering the Chavurat Bekorot (Holy Order, Assembly of the Firstborn) take preparatory to their entering a firstborn community is as follows -- I quote only a part of it to you:

"I do solemnly covenant and promise that I will always repent of my sins, humbling myself before the Father with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, calling upon Yah'shua the Messiah (Jesus Christ) to wash away my offence...I will fill my mind with clean and wholesome thoughts.... I will live uprightly..."

The experience of this Community (Church), which has been entering into such covenants now for nearly a decade, is that they lend tremendous spiritual strength to the believer. They provide an anchor for his emunah (faith), a measuring rule, if you like. He does not attempt to live these covenants in his own strength but in the grace and resurrection power of Messiah.

We have witnessed dramatic changes of personality over the years so we know they work.

Q. Do these covenants in any way shape a person's conscience?

A. Inevitably. We are constantly programming our minds and hearts to think and feel in certain ways, often unconsciously when we listen to others or hear things repeated often. That's how Hitler won a nation, by constantly repeating lies until the people came to believe they were the truth.

Yahweh acts in a similar way. He has given us His Davar (Word), the Bible, as our standard, but unlike Hitler, His Davar (Word) is Emet (Truth).

Q. But isn't there a danger of the covenants substituting for the Scriptures?

A. How can they? The covenants are, after all, simply summaries of the scriptures. There is nothing in the covenants which isn't recorded in the Bible. They are therefore the Davar Elohim (God's Word). And that's why they work.

Q. What would you say was the singular most important blessing given to Messianic Evangelicals through taking covenants?

A. That's hard to say because there are so many of them! But if I may fall briefly into the sin of comparison with the gentile churches, I would say that the covenants have given our people an extraordinary spiritual depth - yes, I think that's how I would put it - so that when we visit other churches, as we regularly do, we sense the shallowness of what they are doing.

You know, this people - the Messianic Evangelicals - have a spiritual knowledge that I have never seen anywhere else, and I have searched the length and breadth of the world for it. They understand human nature better than anyone I know, and they understand what Yahweh's expectation of us is. These two have together given as a crystal-clear vision of the reality of the human condition, shown us the folly of trying to do things the world's way, and given us an ahavah (love) of the Saviour that would not have been possible in any other way.

We are conscious of what is going on around us. We have to be in this world of ever deepening evil and sin. This is not a gift quickly acquired but only painstakingly through rigorous spiritual training. In these last days, where deception has never been so great, learning to discern the spirits is a matter of spiritual life and death - and often physical life or death too. The world desperately needs the spiritual keys that Yahweh has given us though we know only a few will ever be willing to embrace the discipline and commitment to receive them.

Q. In conclusion, what advice would you give the gentile Churches?

A. To face the Davar Elohim (Word of God) honestly - every part of it, no matter how uncomfortable - not to try to 'explain away' that which they don't like but to be courageous and bold and to trust Elohim (God) at His Davar (Word).

It is a hard thing to be 100 per cent obedient to Elohim (God) and yet it is also easy in Messiah. He said so:

"For My yoke is easy and My burden is light" (Matt 11:30, NIV).

Last updated on 14 May 2017