Mathetes continues:

first of all, i would like to apologize for the many spelling and stylistic mistakes in my last posting. i was in a hurry, and did not have time to check the spelling. however, my hope is that what i meant to say could still be understood.

however, i avoid using capital letters on purpose .

i’m happy to read that you are interested in knowing the other evidence also, i.e. the evidence that the change of the method of determining the first day of the lunar month occurred about the time of the babylonian captivity.

as i said, this evidence is indirect, but it is in the bible, and can explain some though not all of the contradictions in biblical dates in the bible.

one can find the evidence when a comparison is made between certain verses in chapter 25:1-30 of the last book of kings and the parallel verses in chapter 52:6-34 of the book of jeremiah.

these places give an account of the same events and also the dates when these events happened. in order to facilitate you, i give below the releveant verses from 2 kings 25 and jeremiah 52 one below the other so that you can easily compare the dates for yourself.

2 Kings 25:3
and on the ninth day of the fourth month the famine prevailed in the city, and there was no bread for the people of the land.

jeremiah 52:6
and in the fourth month, on the ninth day of the month, the famine was sore in the city, so that there was no bread for the people of the land.

you can se here that the dates are exactly the same. The event happened while the kingdom of Judah though under siege still existed.

now compare what happens with the dates once the babylonian empire has destroyed jerusalem and its lunar calendar using the first visible crescent becomes the official calendar of all captured lands.

2 Kings 25:8
and in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which is the nineteenth year of King Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem.

jeremiah 52:12
now in the fifth month, on the tenth day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan, captain of the guard, who served the king of Babylon, into Jerusalem.

here you can see a difference of three days though otherwise the month and year are the same.

2 Kings 25:27
and it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of Judah, in the twelfth month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, that evilmerodach king of babylon, in the year that he began to reign, lifted up the head of jehoiachin king of judah out of prison.

jeremiah 52:31
and it came to pass in the seven and thirtieth year of the captivity of Jehoiachin king of judah, in the twelfth month, on the five and twentieth day of the month, that evilmerodach king of Babylon, in the first year of his reign, lifted up the head of jehoiachin king of judah and brought him forth out of prison;

here you can see a difference of two days though the month and year are the same.


justifiably, one might ask: why such differences or rather contradictions? was it a scribal errors? was it that the biblical authors were uncertain of the exact dates? or … was it rather because some of the dates are given according to the ancient israelite method using the conjunction of the moon and some are given according to the then already official calendar and reckoning of babylon which used the first visible crescent?

this was a transitional period. though the empire used a lunar calendar, it was unlike the israelite calendar and was based on the first visible crescent, which by the way had also to do with the goddess ishtar and the crescent like shapes of the cakes in her honor?

so the authors of the biblical books were themselves uncertain which reckoning to use – whether the official reckoning of the empire or the traditional israelite one from the concealment.

however, one cannot use both and give the same dates. the official babylonian dates will always be between at least one and at most three days earlier than the true israelite dates. what according to the babylonian reckoning would be the 25th day of a month, according to the true israelite reckoning would always be between the 26th (earliest) and the 28th (latest), i.e. between one and three days later. that is exactly the differences we see between the dates given above.

taking into account that the persians who succeeded babylon also used the babylonian reckoning by the visible crescent, and they ruled the land of israel for centuries after babylon, we may get a glimpse into one of the basic reasons why this change of reckoning became intrenched in israel after the captivity.

that was the other indirect evidence from the bible that i mentioned in my previous posting.

however, we have one more biblical argument in favor of the concealment as the beginning of the new lunar month. i believe it is found in the first chapter of genesis. there, we can see that the heavens and the earth began their existence several days before the appearance of a visible moon in the sky which appeared on the fourth day of creation. so, we can clearly see that the numbering of the days of the world started on a day (day one of creation) when a moon was not visible on the sky, not even the thinnest sliver. why wonder then that the concealment of the moon could be the true beginning of a biblical lunar month?

before I proceed with the other with the other basic problem of the rabbinic jewish calendar, let me add a few more words in connection with using the concealment (or the conjunction) as the first day of the lunar month.

if the concealment is indeed the correct date of the new moon, then what follows are at least the following things:
1. one can use the pre-calculated tables of the astronomical observatories concerning the future dates of the conjunctions of the moon to determine well in advance the exact dates (as per the roman solar calendar) for the feasts
2. the feasts should be kept between one and three days earlier than when calculated as per the first visible crescent or as per the jewish calendar of hillel II.

i now proceed to the next most important problem of the rabbinical calendar, and that has to do with the biblically proper way of determining the feast of shavouot (i.e. pentecost).

the rabbins say that it should always be kept on the 6th of sivan. now that is absolutely against what is written in the hebrew text of the torah. however, before i go on and explain why, i would like to know if you are acquainted with the fact that there are two different hebrew words that are translated in the english translations of the bible with the same word sabbath.

Mathetes:

i will continue my presentation with pleasure.
however, i did not receive an answer from you whether you know that there are two different hebrew words in the bible which are usually translated by the same word, i.e. by the word 'sabbath'.

Lev:

Yes, in fact there are three different Hebrew words - shabbat, shabbaton (Lev,23:24,39), and mishbattim (Lam.1:7). However, most people here probably don't know that so you might want to explain for them.

Mathetes:

hi:

i admit that I had not noticed before the use of mishbattim in lam. 1:7. however, as far as i can see, the correct translation of this word is not necessarily sabbaths. the word rather means cessations (of existence) and consequently ruins. yet, no matter how we choose to translate the word in lam. 1:7, it does not have any bearing on the question of the biblically correct determination of the feast of weeks or shavuot or pentecost.

on the other hand, the difference between shabat and shabaton is one of the important things for out topic, i.e. the biblically correct determination of the feasts.

i will first explain the word shabbaton.
let me begin with a few facts:
there are verses where the word shabbaton is used as a component of the word combination ‘shabbat shabbaton’; there are verses where the word shabbaton is used alone, i.e. not as a part of the phrase ‘shabbat shabbaton’.
as far as the word shabbat is concerned, it is also sometimes used alone (much more often than shabbaton is used alone).
when the word shabbaton is used alone, it is always used for denoting either days that are annual high sabbaths (such as yom teruah in lev. 23:24 and the first and eighth days of the feast of sukkot in lev. 23:39) or as denoting the seventh year in the seven year cycle (as in lev. 25:5).

one might ask: is there anything in common between the annual high sabbaths such as yom teruah (or rosh ha-shanah today) for example and the seventh sabbatical year that they are both called by the same word shabbaton? also, why are these called neither by the word shabbat alone, neither by ‘shabbat shabbaton’ but only by the word shabbaton?

well, there is something in common between these and what is in common between them is that unlike those days that are called shabbat (namely, the WEEKLY sabbaths and the annual sabbath of the day of atonement, i.e. ‘yom kippur’), not all types of work is forbidden on those (days and in the seventh year) called by the name of shabbaton alone though most types of work are forbidden in them too. conversely, any day that goes by the word shabbat alone or by the expression ‘shabbat shabbaton’ is a day when absolutely all work is forbidden.

i continue with the hebrew words shabbat and ‘shabbat shabbaton’ on the one hand and the word shabbaton used alone on the other hand and the difference in meaning between the two.

both are times (days and/or years) of rest from work. however, a shabbat or ‘shabbat shabbaton’ is a stricter kind of sabbath in comparison with shabbaton and i can prove that to you in detail from the torah if you want further proof.

now, let us look at the verses in the torah (KJV translation) where yhwh gives instructions through moses how to calculate the day of the feast of shavuot.

lev 23:15: and ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete:
lev 23:16: even unto the morrow after the seventh sabbath shall ye number fifty days; and ye shall offer a new meat offering unto the LORD.

now, if we check what hebrew word stands for the word sabbath in these two verses, we shall see that it is not the word shabbaton, but the word shabbat. That means that the sbbath spoken of here is a weekly sabbath and not the annual high sabbath of the feast of unleavened bread which is on the 15th day of the first lunar month of aviv. However, the rabbis and also many messianics want to make us believe that by the word shabbat in this particular case is meant not a weekly sabbath but the annual high sabbath of 15th aviv. well, the burden of proof remains with them in this case because you will find nowhere else in the entire tanak the Hebrew word shabbat to stand for an annual Sabbath except in the case of yom kippur. however, yom kippur is rightly called a shabbat and not a shabbaton because unlike the other annual sabbaths you are not allowed to do any work whatsoever on that day, not even prepare your food.

now, let us suppose for a moment that the proponents of this theory are right in claiming that in this case the Hebrew word shabbat really means the 15th of aviv which in 6 out of 7 cases does not fall on a weekly sabbath. then, I would kindly ask the proponents of this theory to tell me what kind of sabbath is meant then in verse 16 which says that the feast of Shavuot is exactly on the day after the seventh sabbath. is this a weekly sabbath or is it an annual high sabbath? If it is a weekly sabbath (in fact the Hebrew reads shabbat and not shabbaton), then their theory collapses completely because you cannot have every year exactly fifty days from the 16th to a sunday (the day after a weekly sabbath). In fact, you cannot have such a thing in 6 out of 7 cases. how about if the sabbath in verse 16 is an annual sabbath? well, that is also ridiculous, because there is no ANNUAL high sabbath one day before the annual sabbath of shavuot.

what do the rabbis do in this case? well, they have invented another trick. they say that the word sabbath in verse 16 means neither a weekly sabbath, nor an annual sabbath, but it simply means a week. well, that is an outright lie which they propagate in some of their translations into english. the word shabbat cannot possibly mean a week and there is not a single case in the scriptures to justifify such linguistic antics. I have carefully checked all occurrences of Shabbat in the entire tanak and nowhere is to be found a single case where a week is called a shabbat. the word for week is shavua, nor shabbat. shabbath means cessation (from work) and it does not mean week.

now, what follows from the above?

first, that in lev. 23:15 and 16 the word shabbat means exactly what it says, i.e. an ordinary weekly sabbath;
second, that every year the feast of pentecost should be on a sunday;
third, that the counting of the 50 days should start not on 16th aviv (nisan) every year (unless in a particular year the 15th aviv falls on a weekly sabbath) but on a day that follws a weekly sabbath, i.e. on a sunday.

what remains unanswered is what about if the 14th aviv turns out to be a weekly sabbath in a particular year? do we in that case start counting the 50 days on the 15th aviv, that is from the very day of the first annual high sabbath, or do we wait until the weekly sabbath of 21st aviv and start counting the fifty days from the 22nd of aviv, i.e. outside the seven days of unleavened bread?

the answer to that question we can find in the book of yehoshua, son of nun.
but before I go to the book of yehoshua, let me add something to what I already said.
the feast of weeks in unique among the other annual feasts (appointments or moadim) in that YHWH does not give us an exact date of it. as far as the other moadim are concerned, all of them are given their exact dates in the torah: 14th aviv is the slaughtering of the passover lamb, 15th aviv is the first annual sabbath and the first day of the seven days of anleavened bread; 21st avivi is the second annual Sabbath, yom teruah (rosh ha-shana) is on the 1st day of the seventh month, yom kippur is on the 10th of the seventh month, sukkot is from 15 through 22nd of the seventh month, the 15th and the 22nd being annual high sabbths. but it is not so with shavuoth – no permanent date is given in the torah for shavuoth. why? is there some too deep mystery in that for us to understand or is it simply because there cannot be a fixed day for this feast because every year the day after the seventh weekly sabbath falls on a different date?

in view of everything that we already discussed above, it is evident that there cannot be a fixed DATE for pentecost for all years. not the date is fixed for pentecost but the day of the week on which it should fall, which is a Sunday every year without exception.

but what do the rabbis say? they say just the opposite to what god has said in the written torah. they say that the date for shavuot is fixed and that date is sivan 6 every year-period. however, they assert that the day of the week on which falls shavuot is not fixed and changes every year.

now, before i proceed with yehoshua, let me summarize our findings from the scriptures so far.

(1) the first day of any lunar month is he day of the concealment of the moon and not the day of the first visible crescent;
(2) the feast of shavuot (the third annual sabbath, i.e. shabbaton) is always on a sunday and cannot have a fixed date but its exact date is different every year;
(3) the counting of the 50 days should always start on a day following a weekly sabbath.

so far, we have seen that all of the above conclusions are strictly based on the hebrew biblical text, i.e. they are not based on extra-biblical sources.

Mathetes:

i now continue with the solution to the last remaining question concerning how to correctly determine the date of the feast of shavuot in a given year (assuming we have correctly determined the first lunar month of the year and the first day of that month).

the question was: what if the 14th of aviv is a weekly sabbath? do we then start counting the fifty days on the 15th aviv (a day after a weekly sabbath) or do we wait until the weekly sabbath of 21st aviv and start counting the fifty days on the 22nd (also a day after a weekly sabbath)?

the answer to that question is given in the book of yehoshua, son of nun in chapter 5:10-12. I will use the NKJV as it corrects a previous mistake in translating the Hebrew word avur as “OLD grain”. It does not mean Old grain but it means the produce of the land and is related to a hebrew verb meaning to offer (an offering as to god for example).

yehoshua 5:10-12:
“10 Now the children of Israel camped in Gilgal, and kept the Passover on the fourteenth day of the month at twilight on the plains of Jericho.

11 and they ate of the produce of the land on the day after the passover, unleavened bread and parched grain, on the very same day.

12 Then the manna ceased on the day after they had eaten the produce of the land; and the children of Israel no longer had manna, but they ate the food of the land of canaan that year.”

i will prove that verse 11 clearly shows that in that year the 14th of aviv was a weekly sabbath.
why do I say such a thing seeing the word sabbath does not even appear in verses 10 and 11?

I say it because of the following instruction in lev. 23:10-11 and 14-15:
“lev. 23:10-11
10 Speak unto the children of Israel, and say unto them, When ye be come into the land which I give unto you, and shall reap the harvest thereof, then ye shall bring a sheaf of the firstfruits of your harvest unto the priest:
11 And he shall wave the sheaf before the LORD, to be accepted for you: on the morrow after the sabbath the priest shall wave it.
(then an animal sacrifice is described in 12 and 13 and then follow verses 14 and 15 below)
14 And ye shall eat neither bread, nor parched corn, nor green ears, until the selfsame day that ye have brought an offering unto your God: [it shall be] a statute for ever throughout your generations in all your dwellings.
15 And ye shall count unto you from the morrow after the sabbath, from the day that ye brought the sheaf of the wave offering; seven sabbaths shall be complete”

the important verse here is verse 14. it states that the Israelites are not to eat parched grain until the day the priest waves the sheaf as per verse 11 on a Sunday. the verse durther clarifies that parched grains are not to be eaten until the offering has been brought. What follows from this clarification is that the moment after they have made the sheaf offering (the omer offering) and the sacrifice per verses 12 and 13 they are allowed to eat parched corn - - even on the same Sunday of the sheaf offering.

If we look back to yehoshua 5:10-12 above, we shall see that that is exactly what they did on the 15th aviv (the morrow after the 14th). They ate parched corn of the produce of the land which they are not allowed before the animal sacrifice (lev 23:12-13) and before the sheaf offering (lev 23:14) has been made on the Sunday on which the counting of the fifty days should start.

From the above, we can see that the if in a given year the 14th avvi is a sabbath, we should start counting on the 15th and not wait until the 22nd. It also proves again from a different angle that the rabbis’ teaching that the counting should always start on the 16th is wrong because in this specific year when Israel entered the land they started counting on the 15th as that was the day of the sheaf offering without which they would not have been able to eat oarched grain from the produce of the land.

I would only add to what I said above that the general conclusion should be that the first day of the fifty days must always fall on one of the seven days of unleavened bread. It can be any of these seven days depending on whether the weekly sabbath in a particular year falls on the 14th, 15th, 16th, 17th, 18th, 19th or 20th aviv. The counting of the fifty days should not start on a day which is not one of the seven days of unleavened bread. However, the weekly shabbat right after which the counting starts can be a day which is not one of the seven days, i.e. it could be the 14th.

Yaacov answers:

Mathetes,

Thanks for your meticulous study.

In light of your study above, what do you make of this?:

http://yourarmstoisrael.org/Articles_new/notes/bringing_back.php

And I also echo the moderator's question above.

Mathetes answer:

will need some time to read and send back my comments on the link to mr koniuchovsky's article.

however, from what i already know about mr. koniuchovsky's views on the subject, he (unless he has changed his views in the mean-time) is wrong about the calendar. in fact, he is wrong about other things also.

however, his teaching about the two houses of israel has much merit.

yet, his views seem to be too much in favor of political zionism. also, his eschatology suffers from his leanings towards political zionism. i wonder, if he is not financially dependent on certain circles within political zionism.

Mathetes:

i just read the beginning parts of mr. koniuchovsky's article, and i can see that his views are what i already know.

he defends the typical rabbinic (pharisaic) teachings on the calendar which are wrong and contradict the bible as i already demonstrated in my earlier posts.

in my exposition above, i have already answered his arguments concerning the word 'shabbat' in leviticus 23:15. The word 'shabbat' in that verse cannot possibly mean the annual sabbath of the 15th of aviv as he tries to prove. only yom kippur can be called a 'shabbat' (see my posts above about this). in hebrew, all other annual sabbaths are not called shabbat, but are called shabbaton which is a different word in hebrew though both are translated as 'sabbath' in english.

his reference to the septuagint translation of the torah is also not a proof because that translation was made by pharisaic rabbis who at that time (about 2-nd century BC) had already decided to interpret in this way the word 'shabbat' in lev. 23:15, as rabbinic judaism still does. thus, they made the non-hebrew speaking, i.e. the greek speaking jews of the then diaspora also follow their perverted interpretation. by the way, those translators changed also on purpose the chronology and genealogies of the torah by adding many years to the true chronology of the world.

yet, i do not say that the septuagint translation of the torah is all wrong and useless. however, as far as chronology, geneologies, and the calendar are concerned, it was a purposeful mistranslation.

seeing that the starting premise of mr. koniuchovski is wrong, all his other inferences are wrong also. obviously, his purpose is drawing bible believing christians into the orbit of political (which is in fact atheistic) zionism, and to some extent into the orbit of rabbinic judaism, even though on the surface he seems to be an opponent of rabbinic judaism. however, i do not know with certainty whether he is himself misled or whether he does this deliberately.

My response:

I certainly agree that political Zionism is a major corrupting influence on biblical exegesis (especially eschatology) and thus on calendar interpretation. Whether he has financial dependence on any Zionist agencies or not I do not know - it's possible though I think unlikely. I suppose that would depend on what kind of Zionist agency might support a man in his position. He does seem to have an exceptionally high regard for Herzl and has even named his conference centre after him. His rhetoric on expelling Palestinians from the Holy Land in his commentaries does give me cause for alarm.

Mathetes:

in my view, political zionists in most cases do not care much about religion--be it judaism or christianity. what they care about is to have more friends and less enemies, especially in the united states. they are quite happy to use the christian churches and funds in favor of political zionism by exploiting the natural love of many chrisatians for israel. mr. koniuchovsky plays some role in that respect.

My answer:

That's logical. And in view of the fact that 80% of Israelis are secular, the lobby can appeal to diverse interests (e.g. Turkey, Taiwan and [until recently] South Africa).

Mathetes:

I was wondering what your view was on when exactly does a day, (in particular, a Sabbath day) start? Up till now I had come to the conclusion that the nuances of the Hebrew word for sundown had implied that there was a complete textural covering, a complete cloaking of the earth, and I had assumed that since the lunar months are begun when the moon is not visible ( to prevent the Yisraelites from slumping into moon worship?) that the day was declared to begin when the sun is not visible, including the residual blueish light (so as to prevent sun worship). So in summary, I had thought that a new day begins when the sky turns black. Is this right? or is there a better way to apprehend it?

My answer:

It's an interesting question. Up here in the extreme north we have no proper sunset for many months in the year and no sunrise either so we are forced to arbitrarily set a fixed sunset time or follow the Holy Land sunset. We follow a fixed system here. Where we are (just south of the Arctic circle) this would otherwise create absurdities or sunset at 3 pm in mid winter and sunrise at 9-10 am, making it impossible for people with regular jobs since most people start at 8 am here anf finish 4-5 pm.

Mathetes:

Here is what I think about the answer to your question about the proper beginning of the Sabbath day or of any other day.

First, we should know that one and the same word in the scriptures may mean different things in different places.

Let’s take as an example the word ‘day’.
The word ‘day’ may mean several things in the scriptures.
The first meaning of this word is the meaning given by Elohim himself, namely:
“And Elohim called the light Day and the darkness he called Night.” (Gen. 1:5)
From this first definition of the word day, we can see that the day is only that part of the 24 hours period when there is no light present. In this specific sense, a night cannot possibly be a part of a day.

A second meaning of the word day as found in the scriptures is a combination of a night and a day. That is what you mean by the word day in your question.

A third meaning of the word day is an indefinite period of time usually in the future such as in the expression “in that day” in certain prophetic utterances in the Bible.

The word day has at least one or two more meaning which I will not deal with here.

If you want to know when exactly the night begins in the Holy Land, then my answer is that it begins immediately after the moment when the sun becomes entirely hidden behind the horizon, i.e. when no shadows can be cast from the sun even if the weather is perfectly clear.

Why do I think that way?
Here is why.
The Lord Yeshua says the following about the length of a Day:

“Are there not twelve hours in the day?” (John 11:9)

He does not say that there are 24 hours in a ‘Day’, but 12 hours.
What does that mean? It means at least two things:
1. It means that in this specific verse, He uses the word day in the first sense of the word as in Genеsis 1:5 above.
2. Since the hours of a day were measured anciently by a sun-dial using the shadow cast by the sun in order to divide the day into 12 equal parts (each ‘hour’ then was longer during the summer and shorter during the winter), and since Yeshua himself says that the day has exactly 12 hours (measured by the shadow cast by the sun on a sun-dial), it is obvious in my opinion that exactly at the time the sun becomes completely hidden beyond the horizon (despite the fact that there is residual light in the sky for some time after that), technically speaking it is no longer a day but a night.

However, as the moderator mentioned, things are not so simple when one is situated outside the Holy Land and especially if situated at or beyond the north and south polar circles.

The problem is that the Torah was given with the Holy land in view. In fact, there are several commandments in the Torah that can properly be fulfilled only within a certain geographic area.

It is possible that at the beginning of the millennium, Elohim will make a change to the angle of the earth’s axis, so that during the millennium the day and the night will be equal in length from pole to pole. If that happens there will be no problem to keep the Sabbath properly from pole to pole. That would change the climate also.

A small correction of what i wrote above.

The sentence that reads "From this first definition of the word day, we can see that the day is only that part of the 24 hours period when there is NO light present." should be read without the 'NO' before 'light present'

Yaaacov replies:

So since all the new moons have apparently been identified one day too late according to the rabbinical calender, then does that mean that Yahushua and his disciples actually had Pesach/Passover on the correct day and not early as has previously been taught?

Mathetes:

the first day of the biblical lunar month could be between one to three days earlier than as determined by the first visible crescent. usually, the difference is one or two days.

as far as the last supper is concerned, i don't believe the last supper was a passover supper eventhough it might seem at first glance from the first three gospels that it was a passover supper. I do not believe that yeshua and his apostles ate a passover lamb during their last supper.

also, i am not sure how did the temple priesthood count the days of the feasts two thousand yeard ago and whether there were competing pharisaic and saducaic calendars at that time.

i do not have a definite answer to these things at this time.

Hi Lev,
Sorry but I must just point out your mistake about the concealment of the moon.
" this is the period of the CONCEALMENT of the moon due to the sun, moon, and earth being aligned, and the earth casting its shadow on the moon so that the moon is entirely covered by the shadow of the earth. It is also known as the CONJUNCTION or the astronomical new moon."
This phase of the moon is not when the earth casts it shadow on the moon, as that can only happen at full moon and is called the lunar eclipse. As the earth is between the sun and the moon at it's fullest.
What you mention when the moon is concealed and is between the earth and the sun and the brightness of the sun is too close to the moon for you to be able to observe it and the moon cast's it's shadow upon the earth. That is the solar eclipse. This is what you are talking about at the time of concealment.