, love me!".
Q. So homosexuality is simply a need for parental love?
A. In the vast majority of cases, yes. And this has a very, very important conclusion which we must not miss; namely, the aim of homosexuality is HETEROSEXUALITY. Now I am not playing with words here. What it means is that the aim of all neurosis is to have one's pain taken away so as to be a real, feeling person. When the pain is gone, we would expect homosexuality to be gone also, AND THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENS!
Q. Can it be so simple?
A. Are you surprised? You shouldn't be. So many of life's apparently insoluble problems have simple solutions. And you don't have to go very far to find them. They lie right in your own heart.
Now this is the grand key to the whole problem of homosexuality. No amount of heterosexual acts can alter the homosexual state until that pain is felt. Having sex with dozens of women cannot take away the desperate need of a man for his father. This means that no amount of kissing and fondling from either men or women in the present will alter sexual deviation.
Q. So the same remedy is applicable to promiscuous heterosexuals also?
A. Yes, absolutely. And here Christianity is absolutely unique for it provides for the homosexual the Father he always needed. Our Heavenly Father, revealed to us through Jesus Christ, is a caring, loving and faithful Father, and we are his sons and daughters. His love is unconditional.
Q. But if a homosexual needs to be hugged and kissed by a physical father, then how can our Heavenly Father meet that need?
A. You are right here. We are physical as well as spiritual beings. Our Father in Heaven exists in the spiritual dimension and meets our spiritual needs. Christ, you will remember, told us not only to administer to people's spiritual needs by bringing them to the Father through Him but to also meet people's physical needs.
The first Christians were a very tender and affectionate people, and all true Christians are. Their relationship one to another is tremendously deep. You will read in the letters of Paul how they used to greet each other with a sacred kiss. This was entirely non-sexual but nevertheless stresses the physical dimension of brotherly and sisterly love. We, as New Covenant Christians, are very "hugging" people which is difficult for new members sometimes especially if they come from a cultural background which has taught them not to be too familiar with people. Even some of our older members still have problems with his! I myself had a very formal upbringing and had no such contact with my father at all, which I regretted a long time. But I have changed. Our non-sexual physical contact is very much a sign of the development of the heart-love in a people and is very much a part of true Christianity.
Jesus taught His disciples that all those who obeyed God were His "father, mother, brother and sister". The Christian fellowship is one intimate family. We believe in cuddling our children and making them feel through their bodies how much we love them in our hearts. It is essential for their healthy emotional development.
Q. Such can be overdone, can it not?
A. That is true. Many people hug and kiss compulsively not because it comes naturally to them but because they feel forced to do it. Many do it for various other psychological reasons, not all of which are good. You can't force people to be spontaneously affectionate but at the same time it must be understood that this is a sign of Christian love. A homosexual needs a good father-figure, or maybe a mother-figure with whom to identify and feel love from. In the Christian community we are blessed with many "fathers" and "mothers", not to mention brothers and sisters. It is truly a blessed community!
Q. Don't you think there are difficulties finding the right balance of just the right amount of affection?
A. Without a core of mature Christian "fathers" and "mothers", yes, this can be difficult, especially in a world where rôles are all mixed up. In the New Covenant we find that we must spend alot of time teaching people what real fatherhood and motherhood is because so few people in our Western society have experienced it. This takes time. In the beginning as a Church we were very inexperienced and fumbled a great deal as we learned the correct pattern, and I would say that we are still learning. We have many keys, so many that it will take a very long time to put them all into practice. But we are working at it.
Discerning people's needs is very, very important, and here a knowledgeable ministry is needed. I hope we provide that. Certainly that is what the inner Church, or the Holy Order, is for. Let's take an example. What the homosexual may experience when he is kissed by a woman is something symbolic -- father's love. Those kisses do not fulfil the real need; nor do the kisses of a man fulfil that need, for that matter. Women's kisses and caresses may even deepen the homosexuality in the male homosexual by temporarily covering the need for a father. Women's warmth, then, prevents him from feeling his pain, which is the very thing he must do in order to become heterosexual.
Would the homosexual man need male love if he were fully loved by his mother in early life? No. He needs male love because he was deprived of love by both parents, each in his own way. He seeks after male love because for a variety of reasons he was put in the struggle by a father who did not love him.
Q. So what is the cure for the homosexual? Is it not true that the inner Church has a cure?
A. Yes, we do. It consists of two essential parts. The first is simply sitting down with the homosexual and finding out what those deep seated needs are and then taking him through the pain of that need, in all its horrific nakedness. This regression is not always absolutely necessary and will take a shorter or longer period of time depending on the homosexual's trust of the elders of the Church and even more importantly their trust in, and love of, the Lord Jesus Christ.
Q. Identifying the need and experiencing the pain is therefore the first step?
A. It doesn't have to be painful but it usually is. Primal therapists report that the patient gives out a horrendous scream, called by them a "Primal Scream", which releases all the in-built tension. Often a cure comes once that has been reached. The switch between homosexuality and heterosexuality comes when real contact is made with the heart. The secular therapists then recommend living through lots of past experiences -- reliving the pain of the web of hurts caused by parental lack of love. That is not always necessary. Where the Christian differs from the secular psychotherapist is that at this point he invites the Lord Jesus Christ to enter at his point of need and effect a supernatural healing.
Q. The inner Church has an ordinance, does it not? Is this an essential part of the cure?
A. Not always. Ordinances are points of focus. In its simplest concept, the ordinance symbolically "rewires" the homosexual as perhaps you might rewire a radio set that had been connected up wrong. In the homosexual the male and female natures have become inverted.
Q. You mean we have two natures?
A. Right. Psychologists call them the anima and the animus. In a properly balanced man, the male nature dominates an unconscious female nature called the anima; and in the woman, the female nature dominates an unconscious male nature called the animus. As a homosexual denies or represses his male nature so his unconscious, recessive female side or anima becomes conscious and dominant and his male side becomes unconscious. He then believes that he is a woman living in a male body. The reverse happens in lesbians, the female becoming unconscious and the male conscious, and she believes she is a male living in a female body. This total contradiction between inner and outer leads to neurosis and thus to tension and the homosexual really believes that he is a woman, and the lesbian that she is a man. But it is all an illusion.
In the temple ordinance a reversing of these polarities is symbolically enacted using the arms which respectively represent the male and male natures. The arms are crossed to symbolise the inversion of the homosexual's male and female natures. With Christ focused in the mind of the homosexual with a prayer in his heart for healing, he then performs an inner visualisation of his arms, whilst an elder separates his two arms.
Of course, the ordinance is quite useless without proper spiritual preparation such as I have already outlined. I repeat, it is an aid and may not be necessary. It is not the ordinance which heals but the processes going on inside.
Q. Have you ever employed other ordinances or techniques?
A. No, but one of the members of the Church was shown a vision a few years ago in which a healing process took place. It was slightly different from the pattern in the revelation but which I feel is just as valid. It concerns a very dear brother in Christ who was a homosexual, and was a prophetic dream of what is to come when he is ready to be healed. She has changed his name in the account. Here is the account:
"'Adam' lay on the floor in the temple with his feet on the Patriarch's stomach. The Patriarch of the Holy Order crossed his arms and then took hold of 'Adam's' hands. I was aware that this was a special ordinance. Then the Patriarch began to pull him off the floor and raised him about half a metre. Just before he ascended, 'Adam' cried gently from the depths of his soul, "Daddy! Daddy! Daddy!" many times, sounding like a little boy who had been lonely all his life and had suddenly found deliverance. As 'Adam' was lifted up, a very bright, clear and luscious light suddenly exploded around them both and they totally disappeared out of my sight. The whole atmosphere was one of intense joy. I could not understand the holiness and exalted nature of what was happening."
Q. That's wonderful! Do you think this will happen literally? How much did this sister know about the revelation you have described?
A. I am quite sure it will happen. Whether the healing will take place exactly as seen in the vision I don't know but I am sure it will happen if he chooses to let it happen. Yes, she knew about the revelation, at least in outline. The main difference between the vision and revelation is that the homosexual was lying down and not standing up. Whether the Patriarch uncrossed his arms or not is hard to tell because of the blinding light, but I suppose he did but it was not visible to the beholder.
Q. So, if the cause of homosexuality is a lack of love, then the solution is to give the homosexual love?
A. I don't believe so. Even if a wonderfully loving father were suddenly to appear in the home of a young homosexual who, say, has reached his teens, I don't think the presence of a loving father would make any difference at all to the problem itself.
Q. That doesn't make sense. If there is a lack, then surely you simply fill it?
A. It's not that simple. If the homosexual boy's past history made it necessary for him to deny himself and his needs in order to survive with a sadistic father, for example, then a loving stepfather who arrives later will not be able to undo that earlier history.
Q. You mean, he's still got to go through the pain process?
A. Exactly. Even in cases where the parents have mellowed over the years, the homosexual still experiences the tension caused by his neurosis brought on by earlier hurts. I don't think people realise just how sensitive human beings are. A person is like an intricate mechanical watch. If the owner is rough with the watch and damages the sensitive parts, giving the damaged watch to an owner who takes better care of it won't make the watch work again. First it must be repaired. It must be opened up, dismantled, repaired, and reassembled. Then, and only then, does a more careful owner come into the fore.
So it is with the homosexual. Loving and caring Christians have been terribly frustrated because they have not been able to help the homosexual. Despite all the love they pout out, the neurosis remains. The homosexual, sensing their frustration, may even be driven into greater despair and a sense of worthlessness.
Q. Is this something you have experienced yourself?
A. Yes, in my early days in the ministry, I did all I could to help a homosexual but was repeatedly frustrated in my efforts because I did not have all the keys that I now have. No amount of love seemed to make any difference and my pitiful attempts to explain the condition -- which were often far off the mark -- did little to relieve his frustration. I was right in many areas -- I knew that celibacy was the first and most important step. I also understood the principle of the reversal of male and female principles, but what I didn't know was the first cause, though I had many ideas, similar to the ones you voiced at the beginning of this interview.
Q. You mean, that homosexuality is caused by an assertive father?
A. Yes. I was half right but otherwise I was fumbling in the dark. But the problem was far more complex than I even imagined. Having acknowledged that homosexuality is abnormal and taken a commitment to live a celibate life -- that is, to forsake all sexual contacts and get out of the homosexual environment altogether where the temptation is strong -- the next step is to get the homosexual to feel. But the past is always in the way of the present. If a person could fully feel the love in the present, it means he could fully feel. But to fully feel, for the neurotic, means to feel all his pain first, for that is what arises when he feels. After feeling the pain, he can accept all the present love.
Q. But what, if after feeling the pain, the homosexual reverts to covering it over again?
A. That is a great danger and all too common. Confronting the pain can be terrifying not only for the homosexual but for the one ministering too. The first time I experienced this I was alarmed and feared violence. This is always a possibility. It's like a dam breaking where the emotions can spill into physical reaction. But if Christ can be kept firmly in the centre of the picture -- and this is where the secular psychologist is lacking -- then not only the pain but also the anger can be smothered in a release of divine love at the moment the inner explosion takes place.
Q. What that the light in the vision seen by the sister?
A. I believe so. As the crossed circuits were uncrossed and an explosion of energy took place, so, the divine light absorbed the tidal wave of hurt and transformed it into pure joy -- the joy of final and permanent release.
But to reach this stage, all the old denials have to be faced. Facing homosexuality requires nothing less that 100% unconditional surrender on the part of the homosexual. There is no release by degrees, in my opinion, just as it is impossible to partially repair a malfunctioning watch. So long as the old denials exist, they will impel distorted and perverted symbolic behaviour. Homosexual "marriages", so-called, for example, may go on for years. Both partners seem satisfied and loved, yet there exists a high tension level and homosexuality (neurosis). Why? Because homosexual lovers are satisfying themselves symbolically and not actually. They are usually trying to get Father's love out of each other. When they feel this real need, the symbolic quest drops away. Homosexual "marriages" tend to be unstable just because they are symbolic arrangements which cannot lastingly satisfy the partners.
Q. So really homosexuality isn't a disease at all?
A. Perhaps instead of calling it a disease it would be better to describe homosexuality as a different route for the satisfaction of deprived and often denied need.
Many homosexuals, out of inner conviction that homosexuality is wrong, have tried to go "straight" without solving the neurosis. This I know from my own experience. This only deepens the lie because it means to pretend to give up the need for the father's love, and no one can do that so long as that need is there and real. The only way to get rid of that need is to feel it.
Q. And that's what the New Covenant temple ordinance does, doesn't it? It provides a symbolic father...
A. Again, I must stress, that the ordinance doesn't itself meet the need -- it is simply an outer, visual part of the mechanism of meeting that need through an outer drama which is supposed to make contact with the inner. The Patriarch, or whoever is presiding at the healing session, becomes not so much a symbolic father as a proxy father. In a way, he becomes the ex-homosexuals first father in Christ. Thereafter he will find many, many more! And mothers too, if he needs them.
Q. What of a female homosexual -- a lesbian -- is it a man who presides during the ordinance, or can a woman perform it?
A. Yes, a Matriarch can serve both the homosexual and lesbian, depending what the need is. Or sometimes both a Patriarch and a Matriarch can preside. Usually it is the Patriarch.
Q. I know that some of our readers will be wondering what a "Patriarch" and a "Matriarch" are as these are not familiar terms save in the Eastern Orthodox Church. Could you briefly explain...
A. Yes. The words "Patriarch" and "Matriarch" can be rendered as "spiritual father" and "spiritual mother". A Pastor is a "patriarch" in the outer fellowship or NPKF because he is the spiritual father of the congregation. In the middle Church, or Church of Christ, we have female pastors also, who are the spiritual mothers of the congregation. The Holy Order is led by spiritual fathers and mothers of which there are twelve, one of whom is the Presiding Patriarch.
Spiritual fathers and mothers are vital to the health of a Christian family, both biological and congregational. The great revelation of the Christian faith is that God is not some impersonal force but literally our "Father". And we address Him by that Name because we know Him intimately as we should our earthly fathers. For New Covenant Christians wholeness comes not only through brotherhood and sisterhood but through fatherhood and motherhood too.
Q. Thank you for that clarification. I wonder if we could talk a little about the homosexual's identity. Is it not true that a homosexual is a heterosexual in search of an identity?
A. That's quite a philosophical question! If a person cannot be what he is, he will have to search for his identity. That's true not only for homosexuals but for disturbed heterosexuals too. The homosexual, however, unlike the heterosexual, is doomed never to find that identity, since his identity is no more than the real, feeling self which was not allowed expression. Thus the search for identity is a neurotic enterprise, carried on by unfeeling people who generally need to find someone or something outside themselves to tell them what or who they are inside. Once the homosexual has encountered his pain, in its totality, he will no longer suffer from an identity crisis. Because he feels, he has no reason any longer to wonder who he is.
Now this subject is important not only for homosexuals but for all humans generally. This is a very touchy, sensitive area indeed, but we must deal with it. When a child is now allowed to be himself, he is forced to copy -- consciously or unconsciously -- the behaviours, ideals, attitudes and mannerisms of others. A child brought up by normal parents will not identify with them. They will not want him to do so. Rather, he will have attributes that are his own.
Q. Do you mean that Christians, for example, shouldn't expect their children to obey the commandments???
A. No, that's not what I mean at all. The commandments are a basic rule of conduct that God has given for all mankind.
Q. But isn't imposing a moral code of behaviour what makes some children neurotic?
A. Again, you are confusing two separate though interrelated issues. Actually, we have already talked about this but perhaps I can state it in a different way this time. God has given us commandments which He expects us to obey. Correct?
A. There are two ways we can live them -- by having them imposed externally upon us or by them growing naturally up within us. Correct?
A. The heart of the New Covenant, as defined by Jeremiah, is that the Law be written in our hearts. In other words, the higher law requires that the commandments grow up naturally within. And how can that occur?
Q. By the child being allowed to be itself!
A. Right. Now "being one's self" doesn't mean making up your own moral code of behaviour -- one's own ethics. No. Being one's self means being one's own personality. No child is like its parents. It may share characteristics of parents but it is a unique individual. Once a child senses that the parents want it to be carbon copies of themselves the child start repressing itself and trying to be what it is not. And besides, how can the child be both? No two parents are alike! Thus the child may not only become a neurotic but a schizophrenic too.
If we are to have healthy families we must allow children to be the nature that God made them. My eldest son, for example, is very sporty and "physical" and not at all intellectual, at least not yet. It would be a fatal mistake on my part to try and bind him down and make him more introvert and thinking. He must be allowed to develop the way in which God created him. New Covenant Christians have an advantage over many other Christians, I believe, in our belief in spiritual pre-existence. We do not believe that the personality of a child comes into existence at the moment of conception. We do not believe that its personality is simply the sum and mixing of the two parent's personalities. We believe that the spirits of the unborn pre-existed this life and had their own unique personalities before birth.
This means that whilst parents contribute certain character traits to their children both genetically as well as through behavioural association, at heart the child is utterly unique. As New Covenant Christians we treat out children as utterly unique. Or at least, that is what we are supposed to do.
Coming into the New Covenant Church of God often, then, means that parents, or prospective parents, have to break old behaviour patterns and learn to think, feel and behave in new ways. That is what temple education is for. And particularly we are anxious that behaviour patterns which lead to neurosis are broken. Souls must be allowed to be free.
That freedom to be one's self is not, I repeat, a license to rewrite God's commandments. These are two different things. The commandments were given by God for man. In other words, they are natural to us. They were tailor-made for us. But they must be allowed to grow up from within.
Q. But in practice parents find this very, very hard. Surely the rules must be imposed externally too?
A. That is the dilemma. And it really is a dilemma. On the one hand the individual needs the freedom to grow and discover himself or herself. On the other, we are social creatures and we must therefore have mutually agreed rules and laws if society is to flourish in peace and safety. These principles can, however, be taught children. They, like us, partake of the same fallen nature which leads to rebellion. If they are taught the necessity of externally imposed rules they will usually understand if you teach them young enough. It's when they're older and perhaps more rebellious and resistive to instruction that you will have trouble with externally imposed rules. But I think every sensible person agrees that they are necessary.
Actually, they wouldn't be necessary if everyone were brought up in the ways of the Lord. That is the heart of the Lord's message to Jeremiah. A time is coming when it won't be necessary to teach people these things for everyone will know the Way of the Lord. That, however, will not find fulfillment until a later time, in the Millennium. However, that does not stop us as New Covenant Christians from creating millennial conditions within our own Church, and especially in firstborn communities. And that is what we aim to do, and what we ae doing now.
Q. Allowing children to "be themselves" can surely be very hard when sometimes we don't know where to place the boundaries? Should, for example, children be allowed to be noisy?
A. You have hit me in a very personal spot here! As you know I am a school teacher by profession and I must say I have had to revise many of my opinions about such matters over the years. I am a person who likes order, discipline and quietness, but that is in part, I suspect, because I grew up in a home where these things existed. Not surprisingly, since I was a single child.
This in turn led me to have certain expectations for my children, some of which have proven to be wrong. Now don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that we should relax our standards. We must have order, discipline and quietness, because that is essential to the development of sound spirituality. And it is important that children are taught these things. At the same time, children must be allowed to be children. We mustn't make them into miniature adults. How can they grow and develop naturally if we do that?
By that I mean that children need to be allowed to be noisy sometimes. Any teacher will tell you so. Children are fully of the vitality of life and they need to express it.
When I began life as a teacher in a large school here in Norway I tried to impose order and discipline with a hard hand. It didn't work. Certain personalities immediately reacted strongly against it and became even more unruly. Many children, of course, complied, because they simply wanted to please me, just as children comply with their parents' wishes to please them -- i.e., not to make them angry. Or to put it another way, they please because they don't want their parents to stop loving them.
Q. Which is where homosexuality all starts...
A. Yes. And many other psychological disorders too. I see latent homosexuality in school all the time and I see how children, who may only be a little effeminate, are pounced upon by other children who try to label them as homosexual. And they may even start believing it to the point they become it.
Q. And that's not helped by the permissive education on homosexuality in many schools in the West.
A. Absolutely not. Homosexual education in school is a great wickedness because it encourages children to experiment and break the commandments. There are so many forces arrayed against normal, family life now, and it's going to get worse. We have to fight to preserve normality.
Q. What about the difficult children in your class at school? How did you deal with the problem?
A. Firstly, I let them be who they were but within certain boundaries. I first work hard first to convince them I am their friend. I joke with them and have fun with them but I expect good manners and a certain decorum. I take the view that allowing them to grow up normally is more important than getting good grades. I wouldn't want any child to grow up a homosexual for the sake of grades if it ever came to a choice. Indeed, ask any homosexual if he would like his children to be homosexuals like him, then I guarantee that the majority would say "no". And why, if it is a valid "alternative lifestyle"? Because in their heart of hearts they don't want their children to go through their inner hell. Deep down they know something is wrong.
Q. What about children being adopted by homosexuals? What do you think about that?
A. I cry for those children who are going to be patterned all wrongly inside. It is not enough for them to see "love" -- they need to see normal love -- man-woman love, the only true sexual love that God created. As you can imagine, a child brought up in an adoptive homosexual home is going to be more likely to end up homosexual than heterosexual. It is a crime.
Q. If a boy who was born in a world of only females, would he, do you think, become feminine? Or homosexual?
A. No, he wouldn't. There is a theory, popular amongst homosexuals, that children are born basically bisexual and then either diverge into heterosexuality -- depending on the patterning they get at home and in society -- or into homosexuality. This is utter nonsense. Though a child is outwardly male or female, inwardly they have no sexuality at all to begin with. The two parts of a child -- male and female -- are originally united as a whole. In boys, the female side gradually becomes unconscious until, around puberty, it becomes unconscious altogether and their full masculinity expresses itself. Similarly in girls, the male side gradually becomes unconscious until, around puberty, it becomes unconscious too.
It is then that sexuality begins to manifest itself. Girls become interested in boys, and boys in girls. Why does this happen? Because the boys are searching for their unconscious female side, and girls their unconscious male side.
Q. Is this purposeful?
A. Absolutely. If this didn't happen, we wouldn't become sexual creatures at all and we wouldn't bother to go seeking for mates. Some say that the original condition of Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden was very much like this, before their respective anima and animus became unconscious. There may be some truth in this.
Q. So what you're saying is that if our opposite natures didn't become unconscious, we wouldn't search for husbands and wives? What then, is the purpose of marriage, psychologically speaking?
A. This is somewhat beyond the scope of this interview but I will try to answer that briefly. We become sexual for two reasons: First, so that we can propagate the species; and Secondly, to make us creative. It is only in the separation of male and female that creativity results.
Q. You mean artistic creativity?
A. And scientific -- creativity in general. When the opposite part of our gender becomes unconscious we become "tense", but in a positive, constructive, natural way. Creativity always comes out of tension. That is why, incidentally, many of the brilliant scientists, artists and musicians were homosexuals, only their tension was unnatural. Peter Tchaikovsky the musician, Cecil Rhodes the explorer, Oscar Wilde the writer, Andy Warhole the painter, and many other creative individuals were or are homosexual .. and deeply unhappy persons too, as one would expect. Unfortunately, this creative genius is used by homosexuals to proclaim the validity of homosexuality. Let me state it again, there is no virtue in homosexuality because it is a perversion, a sickness. The creativity belongs to God, not to the homosexual (or heterosexual, for that matter).
Q. New Covenant Christians believe in eternal marriage, but if I understand you correctly, sexuality will disappear one day. What, then, becomes of marriage?
A. Again, we must be careful not to generalise. If sexuality disappeared altogether, then so would creativity. Sexuality is, in a way, creativity. But what I would call earthly, physical sexuality will disappear, yes. We have to ask ourselves the question: why do we have earthly sexuality? Well, I've partly answered that question, I think. But we must ask other questions first.
Why are we here on earth? We are here to learn faith in, and obedience, to God. We are also hear to learn to love unconditionally. You cannot have faith in knowledge. Thus our pre-existence knowledge is taken away from us. We do not remember our pre-earth life, though some individuals remember some.
Q. Let's be clear, you're not talking about reincarnation, are you?
A. That's right. We do not believe in reincarnation, a doctrine which, incidentally, totally upsets the true view of sexuality, because it is used as an excuse for homosexuality.
A. Well, the homosexual can often escape by saying that he was a woman in the previous life and that is why he is homosexual. All sorts of ingenious but silly explanations are given that remind me of the intricate and brilliant -- but wholly erroneous -- explanations given by the followers of Ptolemy to explain the movement of stars and planets in epicycles. They insisted that the earth was at the centre of the Universe and had to explain everything in those terms. The theory became top heavy and had to eventually be abandoned. The same is true with reincarnation, karma, and all the other silly yet deadly doctrines being spewed out in the world to deceive and enslave millions. Reincarnation is used to explain everything but the truth. The fact still remains that a homosexual is a homosexual because his father or mother didn't love him, not because he was a pervert in a previous life, or a woman or anything else. The only hope for a homosexual who believes in reincarnation is that he suffers enough in this life and must pay off his bad "karma" so that he can be born "normal" in the next (if he believes homosexuality is abnormal -- the trouble is, there are as many theories of reincarnation as their are human beings).
But back to my original point, the purpose of our being here. Once a husband and wife have found each other and love each other unconditionally in Christ, then their unconscious selves are re-united with their conscious selves. It is at this point that the need for physical sexuality dims as they discover union on a higher plane.
Q. Do you mean that sexuality for heterosexuals, like homosexuals, is in a way an attempt to get love?
A. Be careful in your comparisons. For homosexuals, sex is a drug to numb pain. For psychologically normal, non-compulsive heterosexuals, it is a normal, natural vehicle towards union of male and female. It is also a vehicle for external expression. We are physical beings and must express ourselves physically in order to be whole. Yet sex, as members of the Church are taught, can be transformed into other creative energies. It is, as I have said, the energy behind scientific and artistic invention and creativity in a transformed state. But this is a very big subject.
Q. So what of heaven? Are we sexual there? What of marriage?
A. Jesus said that there is no marriage in heaven, a scripture that has been twisted by some groups who see marriage in heaven as essentially a continuation of marriage here. They say that this means there are no marriage ceremonies in heaven -- that marriage for eternity must take place here. The vast majority of Christians say that marriage ends altogether at death and that we are single in the eternities.
The New Covenant accepts neither proposition. It is absurd for us to imagine that the intense Christ-like love in marriage should suddenly by split apart at death. We know this does not happen. Equally, we do not believe in the resurrection, where, as Paul says, our bodies are "spiritual", that we can possibly have exactly the same kind of physical union because our bodies will be changed. Thus there can be no "marriage" in heaven of this kind.
Again, this is an enormous subject that would be best treated elsewhere. Suffice to say that in heaven we will not have the need for "physical" sex because it won't be there any more -- save in those people who have sexual problems, who will continue seeking spiritual release through physical sex and intimacy and never finding it (because it isn't possible any more).
We believe that sex becomes elevated or transformed into something holier and that this can be experienced on earth once the passions are subdued naturally. We are not, incidentally, ascetics. We do not teach celibacy. Marriage is the height of normality for us. It is part of the process of maturing spiritually. We believe that as married persons become more and more Christ-centred, and therefore more and more sanctified and holy, that the need for physical sex gradually fades away, because the real contact they have is within.
The New Covenant teaches that as we transcend (but not flee from) the need for sex, so the saints become part of that wider, spiritual or allegorical marriage, called the Marriage of the Lamb. It is here that souls who have attained to oneness within themselves and with Christ become one together, as Christ prayed for in the Garden of Gethsemane. Collectively, these saints or Christians are known as the Church of the Firstborn, or the Bride of the Lamb, the mystical 144,000 spoken of by John on Patmos. These souls no longer play out the need to unite with their opposites through marriage because they are already one. They remain married to their earthly spouses but they are also "married" to Christ and therefore to each other in a spiritual sense.
Q. This, then, is the purpose of the Holy Order?
A. Yes, that is our final aim. But we are not recluses from the world. We are active Christian witnesses in the world too. As an apostle, I am sent out by the Order, just as the apostles were sent out by the Order in Jerusalem when James presided. The Order trains up the ministers for the NPKF and then calls them. All the pastors, elders, teachers and deacons are trained in the Order.
Q. Back to the boy born in a world of females. What would happen to him?
A. Yes, let us return to the main theme. A boy born in a world of females would grow up a normal boy. If he were allowed to be himself and were loved, he would be quite masculine. But these are the keys -- self-unfolding and unconditional love. But if this same boy were brought up by women who were neurotic then there would be all the likelihood of his becoming feminine.
Q. So why do people ask themselves, "Who am I?" Is it because they are neurotic?
A. Very often. Usually they have had to be someone else in order to get what looked like love from the parents. All the ways they were forced to act instead of be tend to confuse their so-called identity. The only person you can identify with is yourself. If you are not yourself, you will have to search for yourself. One woman once said: "I went to Europe last year to find myself, but I wasn't there." I once planned to run off to a Greek island to find myself -- I'm glad I never did because I realised I wouldn't find myself. Usually such trips result in the understanding that, as one children's story writer said: "Sometimes we must travel far to discover what is near." Actually, I believe that people who compulsively travel all over the world to meet new friends and see new places are often acting out a desire to find themselves. Certainly I have known people like this and at the same time sensed their inner loneliness.
When I was a boy I know my father was disappointed that I didn't like cars and trains as he did, but to his credit he never forced me to. Instead I developed an interest in planes and ships, though I loved architecture as my father did. My eldest son and daughter share my love of philately and one or two other things which they came to out of curiosity and thus out of natural desire, but they have their own interests which are utterly meaningless to me personally. But I try to encourage them to pursue them so that they can be themselves. Similarly, our wives and husbands in the New Covenant have different interests to ourselves and they must be free too. My daughter is a compulsive collector and her room is chock-a-block with things which frustrates my wife and I alot. But she is expressing herself and we allow her to do so long as there is a measure of order and tidiness! She must be free. We call this the Five Wise Virgins Principle in the New Covenant which is based on a revelation received by the Holy Order.
Q. There are many different kinds of homosexual, from the aggressive "macho" homosexual to the timid, effeminate "nellie". How do you explain the difference?
A. Pathologically, there isn't very much difference. I have met both kinds and in my opinion both are suffering from the same condition. One was an aggressive hunter after sexual mates and the other in search of the ideal spiritual male union. There is little difference between the boy who identifies with the "he-man" and the one who identifies with women. The difference between a butch homosexual and a nellie seems only a difference in the direction of flight from the pain, rather than in levels of pain. When a butch homosexual adopts tatoos and motorcycles, grows a beard, or takes up weight-lifting, it can indicate that he still may not feel himself and must identify with what he thinks is masculine. He may still be after Father's love and attempts in various ways to be like the real man Father wanted.
The nellie may have given up on Father and tried to copy Mother's interests and ways. Because the butch may have been unloved by a father, he still could be seduced by men, prefers the company of men, and in many ways is similar to the effeminate homosexual. He may not feel any more manly than the nellie and may be worse off because his pretense must be so great.
In less obvious ways many men and women who cannot feel themselves adopt the trappings or the image of what they want to be. The man may sport a large moustache, boots, or rugged clothes, while a woman, in an attempt to appear feminine, may wear low-cut dresses or tight slacks. The very need to project an "image" can be a clue to the very opposite feelings inside, and with these buried feelings one often finds sexual dysfunctions as well. Without doubt though a man may put up a good masculine front, the attempt to be a "he-man" is often betrayed by impotence or homosexual fantasies or fears. As one former homosexual said: "The struggle was to keep my beard on long enough to feel like a man so I wouldn't need it any more. I didn't understand it then, but I do now."
Q. I wonder if we could move on to treat the subject of bisexuality. What is the essential difference between bisexuality and homosexuality?
A. Not that much. Bisexuality, if it really exists, is simply a stage in the development of the homosexual condition, in my opinion. The symptoms of so-called bisexuals are very similar if not identical to homosexuals -- tension, quick to get angery, a desire to please, insecurity, a dominating nature, and so on. They suffer from the same neuroses as the homosexual.
As I have mentioned, since the time of Freud, many schools of psychology have suggested that man is basically bisexual. They state that each of us is part homosexual and part heterosexual. Following the evolutionary theory of origins, they maintain that the aim of a good defence system then would be to suppress the latent homosexual tendencies and work out a proper relationship with the opposite sex. Thus the theories believe that adolescent homosexuality may be normal until the youngster grows up into what is called the genital stage of development. Homosexual dreams, they maintain, are also to be considered as part of normal functioning.
This theory we completely reject in the New Covenant. What these theoreticians describe is not bisexuality but neurosis. So many people have been deprived of love from both parents that there is often a lingering need for love from either sex. This need is so universal that it is unsurprising that bisexuality is considered to be a general phenomenon.
There is no such thing as a basic homosexual tendency in man. If this were so, cured homosexuals would still have homosexual needs, which they do not. Ex-homosexuals who have been intensively studied after their cure report no homosexual leanings, fantasies, or dreams.
Q. So you don't believe that there is such a thing as a bisexual?
A. No, not really.
Q. But those who call themselves bisexuals say they are equally attracted to women as they are to men, whereas homosexuals say they are not attracted to women at all...
A. The cause is the same -- a lack of parental love, as are also the symptoms I have mentioned. Both live in fantasy worlds even though they will rarely admit it. The difference, if there is one, is that "bisexuals" may not hate as much as homosexuals. They may not suppress the pain as much. Thus the difference may only be one of degree.
Q. Does the bisexual need to be cured as much as the homosexual?
A. I would have thought that was obvious since both are neurotics and both have deep, suppressed pain.
Q. What do you think is the greatest obstacle to healing?
A. Trust. It is hard for them to trust because they have been let down so much both by themselves -- their own lack of trust -- and by well-meaning Christians and psychotherapists who have not understood the root causes of homosexuality. In the past, I must say we have to include ourselves on that list. We were walking very much in the unknown, and the unknown brings fear and uncertainty. That is not good for a homosexual to sense.
Q. I've noticed you never call homosexuals "gay". Why is that?
A. Because that would be to perpetrate the lie that homosexuality is normal. The word gay used to mean "light and happy" before it was hijacked and its meaning degraded. But homosexuals are anything but gay. It is ironic that they call heterosexuals "straight" because the opposite is "bent" or "crooked". Thus we refuse to call them "gay". Neither will we call them "queers" or other demeaning terms because this is to attack them as persons when what they most need is love and understanding. "Homosexual" is an accurate and more clinical term, reflecting as it does a clinical or medical condition.
Q. Are homosexuals welcome in the New Covenant?
A. Yes, absolutely, so long as they are willing to accept that they are psychologically ill, prepared to break off all homosexual contacts -- that is, become celibate and keep clear of homosexual society -- and are prepared to face their inner pain. We place the same restrictions on hetersexuals with sexual problems.
Q. What about witnessing to other homosexuals?
A. Not until they are cured, for obvious reasons, I hope.
Q. You have talked much about the psychology or inner mechanism or causes of homosexuality, and mentioned that the vast majority of homosexuality is caused by lack of parental love. But you also mentioned other possible causes. What are these?
A. I have mentioned that homosexuality is not genetic, but by that I mean it is not biologically genetic. Some homosexuality undoubtedly is genetically inherited but not biochemically. These are what might be termed hereditary curses.
Q. I didn't think Christians believed in curses and that sort of thing any more...
A. Most don't, but we do. Indeed, part of the temple ministry of the Holy Order is taking care of just these problems. Again, this is a large subject, so I can only treat it superficially here.
Homosexuality is often passed from father to son. Sometimes there is a generational gap, and it can be traced back to a grandfather.
Q. Are these the result of demonic activity?
A. Quite possibly. We know that certain evil spirits fasten themselves on to homosexuals, feeding off their immoral behaviour.
Q. So would you say that evil spirits play a rôle in all homosexuality?
A. In homosexual acts, yes, because those who commit homosexual fornication remove themselves from the protection of God, as do heterosexual adulterers. And once demonic influences are present, breaking the hold of homosexuality becomes increasingly more difficult. These things we know for a certain for we are involved in the ministry of exorcism, as I have mentioned.
Q. What form does this "protection" take?
A. We all possess a portion of the Light of Christ within us. You can read about it in the opening verses of John's Gospel. This is a divine substance which is both our conscience, our channel to God, and the source of divine protection.
Q. You mean, God is within us?
A. Yes. Jesus also called it the Kingdom of Heaven. As one lives a holy life, so that Light becomes brighter and brighter until it permeates the whole soul. The result is a Christ-like personality. Immorality and disobedience to the commandments in general causes the Light to withdraw to varying degrees -- in proportion to the nature of the sin. It returns to its source. At death, it returns to God altogether, leaving us with the Light we have acquired like leaven within the yeast.
Q. So how do these curses manifest themselves in homosexuals?
A. I don't want to go into this subject in too much detail for two reasons. Firstly, it is not the normative cause of homosexuality, and secondly, people have a tendency to see demons in every corner and can end up blaming Satan instead of themselves for their problems. You may well know that in the Middle Ages Christianity saw demons everywhere. They become a good scapegoat for accepting personal responsibility.
Generational sins are many and varied. You will find these discussed in one of the Church's Bible Series (Foundational Teachings of the Bible, No.9, "God's Plan for Inner Healing and Deliverance", pub. New Covenant Press, 1992). But I repeat, most homosexuality is not inherited but is the product of flawed family relationships in childhood.
Q. You have said that homosexuals and lesbians are welcome to the Church. I am sure, on our part, we will do everything to make them feel welcome.
A. Yes. And I hope they will understand that they aren't the only segment of society whom Jesus is calling to healing and to active service in the Gospel. Jesus came first of all to save sinners, and that includes the vast majority of people on the earth -- in fact, all of them. Homosexuals and lesbians have much they can give even while they are working out their problems and should not wait until they are cured or until they feel worthy before they join the fellowship. We invite them to receive Jesus Christ as their Saviour and request baptism and become a part of our family. May God bless them all. Amen.
Interview given on Friday 17 and Saturday 18 December 1993.
This page was created on 18 May 1997
Last updated on 13 February 1998
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